The conversation started with my guest blog on Simply Solo (In Defense of the Beta Man) continues to inspire me with more thinking on the subject and wanting to continue digging into the issue. Last week I wrote The Friend Zone, and got some more great feedback and expanded on some themes.
This week, I think I have some interesting insight to pass along to the ladies who have at least a passing interest in what makes Beta men tick.
In response to my blog on Simply Solo, Claudia wrote:
Dear beta men, please start asking us out. With a clear intent of dating. Worst case: she will be mean. It may hurt, but really it’s a good thing cause she’s a bitch and you are better off.
Average case: She is flattered, but not interested. Wait 2 weeks and ask only once more. We have a biological cycle that does effect our attraction. There have been studies that prove that a week out of the month, we are far more likely to be attracted to alpha males because of the chemicals flooding our bodies. Plus I don’t know about anyone else, but sometimes the first reaction is no and then after thinking about it later, my mind changed.
Best case: you get a date. Need I say more?
I think this is pretty indicative of what I hear from a lot of women when talking about Beta Men AKA Nice Guys, or guys who perpetually find themselves in The Friend Zone. It boils down to: Betas, grow a pair, step up to the plate, make the move. You’ll never get anywhere with the ladies if you don’t show confidence and be at least somewhat aggressive. I suspect a lot of women can relate to this frustration!
Further down the responses, fitchik4 wrote:
I typically find ones that want you to [prove] yourself to them before they will take that next step. Theres no ‘chasing’ or for that matter dating the traditional way. Thats just what I am finding here. I am not sure if Men still like to do the tranditional way of dating, like asking the women out, picking her up.. that sort of thing. Maybe I am just stuck wanting something that doesnt exist. It is a different time now, with all the internet dating etc. I have no idea why the Beta men here are hard to find. I really dont know why?
While I was pondering how to respond to her, I think I may have solved the puzzle of the mating habits of Beta men. Here goes my take on it…
When a single man meets a woman he’s interested in, the first thing he’s got to figure out is a way to make a connection, and that requires presenting the object of his desire with something about himself that’s worth her time. For Alpha men, it’s relatively easy, especially if he’s blessed with good looks. Human beings are very visually oriented and these guys know that, simply by getting a woman to look at him, the thought is going to cross her mind that he’s worth the time to see what else he has to offer. Even if the Alpha’s not an overtly hot man, he’ll still possess the confidence and the “moves” that he knows women find attractive right off the get-go. Of course, once you get past the superficial and start to get to know them better, that’s when you sometimes run into the personality issues and start to wonder, Where Are the Nice Guys?!
A Beta man may not have those physical good looks that instantly draw a woman’s eye, nor have the moves and swagger that can quickly make a connection. A Beta man will typically need to put more time and effort into making that connection with a woman, to let her know that he’s worth getting to know better romantically. A lot of time the random encounters at a bar or club or party, where an Alpha man’s quick and immediate connection works perfectly, those quick connections aren’t at all conducive to showing off the Beta man’s best qualities. I think that’s why Beta men will typically try to steer things more towards nebulous, “getting to know each other” activities as opposed to a formal date right away.
But wait a minute, aren’t dates all about “getting to know each other?” Yes, they are– but dates in the modern age are typically about getting to know someone within the framework of a romantic and/or sexual attraction that’s already been established. I don’t think too many dates happen now unless there’s an actual spark or potential spark. A Beta man hasn’t yet had the opportunity to show off the qualities that he hopes you’ll be interested in hanging that framework on. Once he’s shown those to you, that’s when he’ll actually “make the move” and ask you out for a real date.
Asking a woman out on a date often represents a defining moment in a relationship. It’s basically saying “I like you in a romantic/sexual way and want to get to know you better. How about you?” For the Alpha man, it’s easy to do this quickly– much of what he knows women find attractive in him is right out there in the open for her to see right away. For the Beta man, those qualities aren’t something a woman can always see right away. He needs a chance to show her, he needs time and opportunity to make his case.
We can look at the process this way: there’s the pre-date time period, and the dating time period. The pre-date is the time where both parties make the decision on whether there’s a romantic connection. With Alpha men, that pre-date period is extremely compressed and fast. It involves looks, chemistry, moves, what have you– attraction that’s immediate. With Beta men, the pre-date period takes much longer and involves showing you aspects of his personality that you’ll (hopefully) find attractive. The process takes longer.
You may be asking myself: well, how do I know whether this guy just want to be friends, or whether he’s going to ask me out eventually? Well, if you just met the guy and he didn’t immediately ask you out on a date, but he is making an effort to try and spend time with you, then odds are damn good that he’s a Beta man who’s trying to show you things about him that you’ll find attractive so when he finally does ask you out, he has a much better shot of you saying yes than he did when you first laid eyes on each other. Assuming you have some interest in him too, or even just mild curiosity, allow him the opportunity to make his case. If it’s taking too long, feel free to give him a nudge, but know that he will get to it. And if the qualities I wrote about in my blog on Simply Solo appeal to you, it will certainly be worth the wait!
Of course, some women are going to find this sort of thing annoying as hell because it’s not clear-cut and runs the risk of wasting a lot of time. For them, I think you’ve got two choices: give up on Beta men and just stick with the Alphas and that instant chemistry and connection. Or be aggressive with the Beta men and let them know he doesn’t need to make the case first, the verdict is in and you’re ready to get to the dating. This might not be the way you like your romance to go, but you do what you gotta do.
Now, this isn’t to say that there aren’t wishy-washy guys out there who will just pine away and never move out of the “getting ready” zone into actually doing something because of their fear of rejection, and so they’d rather sit in limbo rather than risk being turned down. Some guys have serious self-esteem issues that are very difficult to get past. And yeah, there are Beta guys that can certainly benefit from gathering the strength to just step up to the plate and make that move on the worthy women who may not have the time or desire to have an extended pre-date period.
But all people are a mixed bag of blessings and flaws, and Beta men who are a little shy or feel the need to spend some time laying the groundwork before having the confidence to ask you out… those really aren’t so bad as far as flaws go. Those are flaws that become irrelevant as time goes by– as he gets to know you better, and gets to know the two of you together, he will gain the confidence and ease with you that women want in a mate. And in exchange for having the patience to endure the pre-date period, you get all the blessings that I talked about in my blogpost on Simply Solo… and that might be a pretty good deal.
So what do you think? Does this make sense, or am I way off base?
Ben, this is a great post! Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, too many women (and men for that matter ) use only 2 categories for men…..Alpha & Beta. There are other categories as well though…..Bullies and Omegas. There are many differing definitions of each. I even wrote a blog about Alpha VS Beta which clearly shows that Alphas are NOT Bullies but are merely confident men. http://lifeinthedashlane.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/alpha-male/
I’ve just found another article which may help explain the differences between Alphas & Bullies (there are other links at this site regarding Omegas and Betas as well). http://ca.askmen.com/money/career_400/471b_are-you-an-alpha-male-or-a-bully.html
Yeah, I mean obviously people are generally a lot more nuanced than these labels suggest, and I’m certainly not trying to paint all Alphas as assholes. I’m just trying to stand up for and shed some light on the Beta men of the world 🙂
Thanks for sharing those links and expanding on the conversation!!
You’re welcome. I think many women are looking for certain “qualities” in a partner and I’m not so sure they can be always classified as Alpha OR Beta. For myself, confidence, humour, compassion, leadership are quite important. Does that mean I want an Alpha or a Beta? Hmmmm…….
Many of the qualities you want can show up in either type of man, but I imagine that some of the qualities may be more likely to be found in one or the other. Like in your examples, I’d imagine you’re more likely to find confidence and leadership in an Alpha man, but that’s not to say it doesn’t exist in Beta men– it just might not be as overt or developed.
Correct-o-mondo my friend. As much as I THOUGHT I wanted to be with an Alpha, I now realize that I should just stick to the list of qualities I find appealing in a man. Obviously, to me anyway, these qualities will be found in a specific MAN (as opposed to a man who has a label attached).
Yes! And it’s my hope that maybe I’ll have given you some insight into the nice guy you may run across who you’re unsure whether or not he’s interested in you and whether he’s EVER going to get around to actually ask you out hee hee! 😉
LOL, after reading Steve “Mr. Alpha” Harold I think his view of Alpha and Beta men is quite different from my view. He seems to prescribe ugly behavior to Betas and upstanding behavior to Alphas, which I suppose is fine for whatever idea he’s trying to sell. In my mind, Alpha and Beta behavior is more tied to degrees of confidence and sensitivity in relationships, and being a jerk or a bully is another thing entirely that you can certainly have in either sort of man.
What I’m trying to do is provide some insight into those quiet, genuine nice guys who sometimes seem to take forever to make their move in the game of romance.
Seems to me there are waaaay too many variations given for Alpha, Beta, Omega and Bully.
yeah, I mean people are complicated and don’t really fit perfectly into boxes or labels, but I think sometimes it can be useful to help begin to understand them– as a first step if you will, not an all-encompassing answer. I certainly can’t presume to speak for all men, but as a Beta man in my 40s I’m hoping I can shed a little light into how we think and operate for the women out there who might be wondering about it LOL
What list of qualities would you describe as being “beta”? I’m interested in seeing your perception 😉
Did you read my guest blog over on Simply Solo? It covered some of what I see as qualities you tend to find in Beta men.
Most women are trying desperately not to to be fooled by the ever-hated “Douchebag”!
Indeed! Though having them around makes “I’m not a douchebag” a pretty nice selling point 😉
It seems like the emphasis here is on first impressions, and it’s really awesome to point out the impact that online dating has on making those first impressions. If you check out the dating sites, underneath all of them is this prescribed notion that there is some absolute or best match for you out there, and the idea is to get closest you can to that ideal person, based on how the dating site characterizes your personality. It’s all about overlapping desirable first impressions. That in itself is really humorous to me, because one may give very different responses to those assessment questions depending on how they feel that day. And they are so open-ended, they just thrive on variability. I suppose there would be a lot fewer “matches” if they didn’t! Anyhow, I digress… I wish people would get away from that idealism that there is someone out there to match with you based on personality and experience measures. Ultimately, it’s not about liking the same movies, food, or political candidates, or how educated you are, or whether you like large and blonde or small and dark. It’s about what you are willing to do for another person. It’s about what responsibilities you are willing to serve, and how much you want to be a part of someone’s life. How well to those things overlap? Are you willing to listen to my daily flow of little things, nothing to write home about, just the unimportant stuff that stimulates me throughout the day? Are you willing to be there, hold my hand dry my tears, when someone close passes? Take a day off to stay home with a sick kid? Alpha, Beta, hell I don’t care, Gamma! Those are the things that really matter. I’m not sure that many have the stamina for it starting out, but It has to show signs of growing. First, you want your immediate needs met, and to be comfortable. I don’t want to be lonely. I want to be comfortable. Chasing comfort, I won’t easily find what I truly need. And no matter how much my husband says he loves me, I’m pretty sure he’ll never have the capacity to give me the things that I truly need to have a happy, stable, and healthy partnership. But hey, he sure made a good first impression.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences Robin! Online dating isn’t something I’ve yet tried out, and to be honest I’m hoping to avoid it and find someone special through expanding my social circles. It may not be feasible, but I’ve got my fingers crossed! Online dating wasn’t around back when I was single the first time around, the closest we had were classified ads in the weekly city Style magazine where you called and talked on the phone a bit before making a date. The few times I tried that were pretty awful LOL!
That sounds like the smart way to go. I’m not at all experienced with it, but was curious and eventually did check out how it works. I was immediately turned off. (Big surprise!) My Mom met someone special that way, following a long and arduous marriage, so I suppose it really can work for some people. I’m probably venting too much on the internet these days! I’d like to hear more about your thoughts on Alpha and Beta women and they intersect with the Beta man… would you even define an Alpha woman the same way you would an Alpha man? Anyway, it’s fascinating! Keep it up!
Thanks for the encouragement! The topic certainly has me thinking a lot, and seems to have gotten a lot of great feedback.
I hadn’t thought about whether the Alpha and Beta labels apply to women, but I suppose they might, though I’m guessing there would be a lot of differences given gender roles and such when trying to find a partner. Hmmm… food for thought… and maybe another blogpost! 🙂
Oh yes! http://two.not2.org/psychosynthesis/articles/rmoore.htm#4 – these traits most certainly can apply to women in the context of dating. Not all women are Beta 2s getting suckered into Alpha 1s 🙂 but if you contrast the Alpha vs Beta you can see Alpha would conform to stereotypically male behavior, and Beta the female. However, some females are happy to take on the Alpha role. In fact, I’m finding that having a high Beta partner would be desirable, since my daily responsibilities call for a more Alpha approach. It’s hard to bring myself from my natural state of Beta 4 into Alpha 1-3-7, which I must do to support my daughter. At the end of the day, where is the Beta 2? Having an strong Alpha man doesn’t help women who live considerable lives outside the domestic model.
Thanks for the link Robin, I’m looking forward to digging in and reading it 🙂
I’m glad you hear your mom found someone special, that’s pretty cool! Yeah, I mean I suppose online dating wouldn’t be so huge if it didn’t have some sort of success rate, and I’m sure curiosity will likely have me give it a try eventually. The experience will likely generate a few blogposts here I have no doubt 😉
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Is there really a difference, such as Beta and Alpha men? It’s all a state of mind. I recently met a man from a on-line dating site. Very handsome, single, decent lifestyle, but struggling to find a girlfriend/companion (someone to cuddle with). His approach was crass, rough, immediately about sex and what he liked sexually. I found this to be a huge turn off, and according to him, so did other women. What he was lacking was confidence and certainty about what he wanted from women. He didn’t appreciate what a woman could actually add to his life in terms of friendship, romantically, and sexually. Instead, he simply created a defense mechanism by approaching women as if they were objects. After talking with him, he admitted that he had some self-esteem issues, and felt frustrated. I suggested that he get a clear idea of what he wanted from women on a short and long term level. And, if he had more faith in himself and in his ability to create an ideal relationship with a woman, he’d be successful and happy. In my opinion, you have do the work in all pursuits for love and sex. That is were all the fun is. NO SHORT CUTS! If sex is what a man wants, get out there and work for it by being transparent, honest, charming, and considerate. Have an open dialogue with a woman, but go easy. Educate yourself about women, how they think, how they feel, what usually turns them on. Yes! Women are sexual.If you play your cards correctly, any man can have a good woman by his side, to cuddle, have sex with, and other things. You must show a woman that you think she is worth the effort, get to know her, appreciate what she has to offer as a full complete person.
This make a lot of sense to me. I am probably what you call a beta male. I am not going to stand out. I am not going to wow you or even get your attention. But I will be the one at the end of the party who helps you clean up. You will have to see me in my environment and spend some time really get to know me. I will take work to know.
So sorry I’m just reading your reply, Andrew. In my opinion, a man like you, is mostly what women are looking for. And, I would not call that being a Beta Man. You sound more like an Alpha Man if this term actually exists. It takes inner strength and confidence to actually be that guy a woman can rely on. The most sexiest attribute in a man or woman is self-confidence, a strong foundation, and a healthy self-esteem. You must truly like yourself. There is nothing wrong with being that guy who helps out at the end of a party. And yes I agree with you in order to know if you have found the right woman for you, she has to get to know in your own environment.